On the Frontlines: Scaling a Tech-Enabled Care Model | Jamie Meyerson, Maven Clinic

Ken Babcock (00:00.816)

Hey everyone. Welcome to the change enablers podcast. I am so pumped to have Jamie Meyerson here. Jamie's the VP of network strategy and operations at Maven clinic. Fun facts. I've known Jamie for 11 years now. Was that right? That's a long time. Probably when I was like an intern at Deloitte, would that, would that be the starting point? I mean, or Cornell. Yeah.

Jamie (00:14.378)

Yeah, yeah, 11 years, I know.

Jamie (00:24.399)

That or the year after? Yeah, the Cornell connection too.

Ken Babcock (00:27.896)

Yeah, obviously. So, uh, this is fun. This podcast will be like, you know, two old friends catching up, but, um, I do want to share a little bit more about Jamie, just so you know who you're listening to, um, like I mentioned, she's at Maven clinic, Maven is the largest virtual clinic for women's and family health. And what's super cool, uh, in 2023, Maven was named two times 100 most influential companies, um, which is amazing. So I'm, I'm super excited to hear more about that.

and how Jamie's helped sort of achieve a lot of those incredible outcomes. Uh, before Maven, um, like I mentioned, Jamie and I started our careers at Deloitte consulting and strategy and operations practice. Uh, from there, Jamie went to Mount Sinai health partners on their commercialization team, uh, and after that ended up at Maven. So, and, and some fun things too. Jamie's a foodie, aspiring chef, aspiring tennis player. Uh, so lots of fun stuff we can dig into here, but.

Jamie, welcome to the podcast.

Jamie (01:29.762)

Thank you, so happy to be here.

Ken Babcock (01:32.376)

And I always like to get started with just like a quick sort of warm up question. These take different forms and different episodes, but today we're going to ask you what the most underrated ops role or function is.

Jamie (01:48.458)

Ooh, well, I do think that depends a little bit around how we define ops and ops functions, which I know we'll get into, but for me, I would say.

more so philosophically, all of the junior people and even sometimes not so junior people that are doing all the manual workflows in the background that aren't productized that no one sees. And this might look differently at different companies, but for me, something I can think of off the bat on my team are people copying and pasting across spreadsheets to make sure onboarding goes smoothly.

all the stuff that no one sees and the member particularly doesn't see at the end of it.

Ken Babcock (02:36.124)

Yeah, the folks that are living in Google Sheets, the Google, the Google Sheets, gremlins, maybe we call them that. We had this at Uber too, especially for like our drive around boarding before we could like scan driver's license or other forms of ID or run background checks automatically, we had people like posting up in like courtyard Marriott's with a line of drivers.

Jamie (02:39.142)

Yeah, that's it.

Ken Babcock (03:01.98)

like looking at every ID individually, handing out phones individually, and you're like, yeah, this is a hyper growth company, but like nothing we were doing was scalable. And I think that's one of the things that, you know, people often miss is like to achieve some of these levels of growth, it actually takes like a lot of grunt work.

Jamie (03:20.914)

Yes, a ton of grunt work. And that was actually the example I was going to use in terms of a function, whether it's called network management or onboarding at really any marketplace, particularly early days. The Google Gremlin game is strong. Ha.

Ken Babcock (03:37.568)

So let's talk a little bit more about Maven. Maven was sort of your first startup experience and your first time diving into an operational role. So, I mean, talk to us about joining Maven a little bit more about the company's goals and vision and how you found sort of an opportunity there.

Jamie (03:41.194)

Yeah. That's me.

Jamie (03:49.431)

Yeah.

Jamie (04:00.874)

Yeah, certainly. So I guess starting with that.

Maven at its core is about solving gaps in care for women and families. I think now, honestly, we see those gaps more than ever with Roe v. Wade being overturned in the Dobbs decision, with the fact that over half of the counties in the US don't even have an OBGYN, with the increasing maternal mortality rate. So that's really where Maven steps in with a 24-7 global access

that really offers members the clinical support, emotional support, even sometimes financial reimbursement support that they need, no matter what journey they're on. And for me, it's been really interesting to see Maven meet members across so many of those journeys over my four and a half years there now, first starting with maternity, but then really expanding to family building and fertility, postpartum.

pediatrics now all the way up through menopause. So very excited to have been on the ride with Maven thus far to see what comes next.

Ken Babcock (05:14.6)

Four and a half years in startup land is probably like three decades. So I'm sure you've seen and experienced a lot. So talk to me about what your specific ops team serves and just a little bit more about how your role has shifted. Cause obviously in that four and a half years, it's probably looked a lot different.

Jamie (05:21.629)

Yeah.

Jamie (05:37.95)

Yeah, it has certainly evolved. So I will say when I first came on, my role was specifically focused on building out all of the teams and infrastructure required to deliver virtual healthcare services. So my main stakeholder was the provider, but at the end of the day, my mandate was making sure that...

Any member can meet with a high quality provider and have their need met faster than really any other option. Over time, my role did expand particularly, I would say in the last year, year and a half, to also support.

all of Maven's member-facing team. So I mentioned the providers. We have over 30 specialists on Maven that you can access. But we also have a dedicated care advocate team that will coach, answer questions, as well as a care support customer support team as well. So today, my team really thinks about...

network growth, so how many providers do you need, how many care advocates do you need, where and when, in addition to enablement operations, so how do you actually get all of these stakeholders onto our platform, into our systems, set KPI, set targets, and then lastly, manage all of the tooling and the systems required to...

deliver care or to operate. So this could look like things for my team, like a shift scheduling tool. How do you manage the thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of availability to ensure coverage all the way down through configuring a CRM to manage our providers or to support our core customer service messaging interface.

Ken Babcock (07:30.096)

Yeah, that's fascinating. And one thing you touched upon there, this supply coverage idea, this sounds like a business where like supply is what creates demand because the differentiator is really like access and availability. And so ensuring you have supply, most people think of supply and demand as like this constant like balancing act, but the reality is like.

You need to make sure that you can deliver on the promise to your members. And so that's probably like, that's probably like a really high pressure position to be in. And so were there moments where like that really wavered and you're like, Holy cow, like, how are we going to, how are we going to do this?

Jamie (08:12.914)

Yeah, honestly, I would say one of those biggest moments for me was March 2020. So I joined Maven in September 2019, had about six months there, and COVID hit. Those first one to two weeks of COVID put aside the sheer fear, am I okay, is my family okay, are my friends okay? We had such rapid and vast

outreach, particularly from health plans, in how to spool up and augment their virtual services. Like this was the telehealth boom, right? So I remember so vividly, it was I think the second and third week of March where Massachusetts Medicaid plan, MassHealth reached out.

wanting to learn more about how they could support their members, particularly women's, family, health, children. And within the course of two weeks, we launched to 1.8 million covered lives. And for my team, that looked like...

rapid recruitment, rapid onboarding, rapid re-engagement of our current network. We had 20% additional engagement from our providers who just stepped up wanting to help. It was rapid processing of emergency licenses in Massachusetts and setting up a daily conversation with the head of that group to make it all happen. So I will say looking back.

that yes is an example of probably when I felt the most pressure about supply, but also quite frankly is one of my proudest moments and proudest moments of my team and for Maven for meeting the moment.

Ken Babcock (10:00.836)

Yeah, that's really incredible. I think with startups, there's often this challenge. Externally, you hear about opportunities like this. I'll use opportunities in quotes, because obviously it was a challenging time for a lot of folks. But when you get some of these opportunities, it's not just like, oh man, this thing has been handed to us. What a gift. It's also, can we rise to this challenge? I mean, we think about that with.

Large enterprise prospects. Sure. Would we love to have that deal? Absolutely. But like, can we reasonably do it? And it comes back to like, can you deliver on that promise? It sounds like you all at Maven were able to do that, which is, which is really incredible, but that often gets lost in like the startup ether because you just celebrate the successes, but it's like, Hey, this opportunity, this potential success at one point.

gave a lot of people a lot of gray hairs because we weren't sure if we were going to be able to do it.

Jamie (10:57.806)

My god, yeah. I will say that that's the healthy tension between growth and operations teams in terms of absolutely recognizing the need to grow and to serve our clients, but also recognizing the lift, what it takes to do that, even things like, what is the implementation timeline? Can we do it in three months? Can we do it in six months? They're all ongoing negotiations.

Ken Babcock (11:26.876)

Yeah. So you got the crash course in being part of a startup within your first six months. For members of our audience who are maybe thinking about making the leap, toying with the idea of joining a startup, any advice that you'd share or watch outs, ways to kind of mentally prepare yourself.

Jamie (11:27.607)

Yeah.

Jamie (11:52.806)

Yeah. Oof. Aye.

Jamie (11:58.478)

say take the leap and trust yourself that if it doesn't work out you can course correct and that's okay and for a lot of people it doesn't work. For me I was scared right like grew up in management consulting did my MBA worked at Mount Sinai another fairly large organization and I came to Maven

First of all, I remember they gave me a MacBook and I did not know how to use it. I'm like, where's my Excel, where are my hotkeys? Things like Looker, all of the tooling involved, which now I feel so fluent in, which is great, but there's all these new systems and processes. And then being honest, for me, I think it was a very classic startup story in some ways in that.

I came over, I was recruited in from someone who's great and I still keep in touch with today. And two months in she had to leave for personal family reasons. So I inherited the team reporting directly to the CEO. And then six months later, COVID hitting. So my role shifted, my responsibilities shifted, the world shifted. So I think as much as you're able to...

take it step by step, day by day, to trust yourself, trust that you can course correct when you need to, the more successful that you'll be.

Ken Babcock (13:26.216)

and embrace the chaos. Because I mean, everything that you described, right? Like that's, it's a constantly changing environment. The people around you are changing. The opportunity is changing. The goals are changing. And it's less of this, all right, everything is very stable. We know where we need to go. This is what the plan is and that we need to hit. It's more of a, we're building the plan as it flies and you're along for the ride.

Jamie (13:28.949)

Yes.

Jamie (13:53.442)

Yeah, I will say when people have asked me that question of like, what's your superpower? What's your strength? I typically say bringing order to chaos. That is something that has served me well, really throughout my career, but particularly in startup world.

Ken Babcock (14:09.212)

Well, let's talk about that. So, you know, I want to, I want to focus a little bit about, you know, we talked about that opportunity that, that arose for your business around COVID. Um, there's been tremendous growth in Maven since then. Um, talk to me a little bit about how you were able to scale internally. I think you were, you're maybe 40 people on the business side when you started, is that right? And so maybe help people understand.

Jamie (14:33.887)

Yep, I got 40.

Ken Babcock (14:38.492)

where that team is today and give us maybe like the arc of how you got there.

Jamie (14:46.234)

Yeah, certainly. So from a company growth perspective, when I joined, we're about 40 people on the business side, 20 care advocates, and the business is now 10x that size today. Similar growth story with my team, actually, if not more, with slight scope changes in between. So when I joined, my role was very, very focused on

providers and arguably what it looked like was this decentralized incubation structure where I was responsible as the single threaded owner across every single team vertical or function that was needed to support that and stakeholder of a provider. So when I got to Maven, I think there's always the first order things of

auditing all of the workflows that currently exist, understanding to the extent you can, why decisions were made, using the product. I always say this, I say this today, know your product, book visits, book multiple visits, understand what providers are seeing, understand what members are seeing. But perhaps putting that aside as phase one, in terms of actually making structural decisions, for me it very much came down to

what are, of course, current business priorities, but what are the table stakes foundations required to deliver healthcare virtually? And we actually started talking about this already. At the end of the day, you need supply. Like that is your number one thing. As such, when I came in, really my first...

order was building out our supply and demand models and understanding what our forecasts were, what decisions we were making as a company around what specialty types to offer in what states and now what countries to look at how that impacts our financial decisions and then to go out to market and get them, right? So it was really that we call that workforce planning, the supply and demand modeling side, but then

Jamie (17:02.382)

quickly goes to the recruitment side. Those were my first two hires, right? So I would say my journey was definitely coming in, doing the work myself and then hiring people that...

that could also do it or that could excel in it, that could bring even more to the role than I could. So I would say that was really my primary focus for the first year. I would say my second year at Maven, scaling decisions were largely driven by growth and expansion into the health plan market. So any...

workflow is stressed with volume, is stressed with scale. Things break, Google Sheets break, you need tooling. So those are the types of decisions that we were looking at that point. And then particularly moving into the health plan partnerships or the health plan side of the house.

that comes with more requirements. It comes with reporting requirements. It comes with a need, honestly, to recruit a more diverse provider base, geographically, languages, subspecialization. So a lot of the work I was doing is...

how to drive that strategy, how to find these providers, how to make decisions on what we're gonna index on, and then also even building out again that reporting infrastructure to know what languages providers speak or what areas they feel comfortable counseling in. And then I would say from there, the third piece that I really focused on was nailing our clinical delivery and really building out V1 of our...

Jamie (18:45.858)

quality monitoring, training, oversight processes. At the time, this looked like service quality and clinical quality, knowing that both are important. And that pretty much took me through my first.

three years and honestly at different points, V1 of all of those might've been built and the question at hand might've been how to optimize, how to strengthen, how to evolve. But then really, last year, there was a broader reorg at the company that essentially moved more of the clinical member facing support teams like clinical quality or our.

our full-time practice group squarely underneath our Chief Medical Officer. So we can now operate, or made the choice to operate, honestly, like many digital health companies do with that operational clinical dyad.

Ken Babcock (19:48.324)

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I think, you know, there's a couple of things you talked about that I want to touch on. One was that things were breaking a lot. And then the other one was kind of the role of like systems and tooling. And so, you know, as you're sort of setting this up, the progression makes a ton of sense, right? Set the plan, execute on the plan. Refine what we've done related to that plan and, you know, but along the way, it wasn't obviously that smooth.

moments where things were breaking down and what was that a signal for you to go do? Was that hire more people, productize a tool, get a third-party tool? What did that look like?

Jamie (20:32.306)

Yeah, so I can certainly think of examples with very manual processes that we're breaking down. I think the ideal honestly is to spot when they might break down or spot when more of a centralized structure makes sense where I can move, for example, our...

provider recruitment team to our core Maven recruitment team so they can take advantage of shared tooling, shared resources, skill set, growth opportunities. But perhaps to answer your first question with a somewhat similar example, I would say something that I quickly learned in my, it was either my first or second year, was the need for a formal training or formal knowledge management.

platform for our providers. I think early days we were lucky to work with great clinicians where we could develop really strong training, but they were still delivered either through video sessions or asynchronously on PDFs, built in PowerPoint files, and that wasn't necessarily

the most scalable or effective way, honestly, to do so. So I did contract with a tool that essentially would serve as our repository of all our trainings, where you could also build in knowledge checks and quizzes, where you could clearly see reporting on what providers had completed it, which hadn't do outreach based on that.

So I think that was an area where perhaps it didn't fully break in its entirety, which, you know, generally positive, but that we did see the writing on the wall.

Ken Babcock (22:22.032)

Yeah. And there's almost this balance of like in the early days, you want a level of control to ensure, you know, these early clinicians and that early member experience is exactly as you've, as you've planned it out to be. But then eventually there's an inflection point. Maybe it's not a breakdown. It's just this inflection point where you say, I'm willing to let go of some control in order to make this thing scale. And so, you know, the knowledge management use solution that you shared there.

Jamie (22:45.506)

Yeah.

Ken Babcock (22:50.348)

was a step in letting go of control and allowing for some scale. But maybe talk to me about scale. Because it's not just like, all right, I flipped a switch, I hit the inflection point. We're scaling. What are some challenges that you all faced in scaling specifically?

Jamie (23:11.382)

Yeah, it's a good question. And per your last comment, the classic sharing your LEGOs advice given to startup operators, I would say for me with scale it's interesting for a while, it was like, what does this mean? Everyone talks about it. And I think you fundamentally know what it means. Sorry about that. You fundamentally know what it means in terms of...

growth, perhaps nonlinear growth, needing to scale teams sublinearly to actually have a business model that works to support it. But I think scale, for me, has really been defined by understanding.

what might break in getting ahead of it, whether that's with tooling, people, processes, and focusing on those core areas that are foundational to your success, like provider supply, like provider onboarding. But there's also quite a bit of work around general org structure and how to set your team up for success and how to set the business up for success. So for example, we talked about how my first role at Maven was really

this single threaded end-to-end owner over everything provider, provider recruitment, supply and demand forecasting, onboarding, clinical compliance, quality, and at some point.

we recognized that certain teams would be more efficient elsewhere. They would benefit from shared inputs, shared outputs, shared stakeholder meetings, shared tooling, and honestly, additional growth paths for people in that specialized area. So yes, on the provider recruitment side, moving it to the, to the formal recruitment team did all of that. You could use one greenhouse instance and have people who knew how to

Jamie (25:09.696)

to do it and honestly swing capacity if a recruiter here could help out if a sourcer there could help out. We also made similar moves on training being consolidated to someone that really has that knowledge management expertise because to some extent you don't know what you don't know and I've seen that been really powerful over time into your question on

when that might happen. I don't really think there's a magical rule here. I tried to find it, could not. But for me it's, when is there like honestly quantifiable ROI in making a change? Like what are the actual efficiencies you will gain? Whether it's hiring less people, whether it's retention, whether it is shared tooling so it's one less vendor contract. I think a big piece of it

is appetite of the other business unit to take on your work. Right? So it's like, we talk about sharing Legos a lot, but we didn't talk as much about getting people to take your Legos. And I think there is this reality that people have a ton of work on their plate, right? So it's how are you developing those relationships? How do you make sure that team is set up and can specialize in the way that they would need to, to honestly take on this work?

And third, it's really opportunistic timing. I think when there's big leadership changes, exec changes, that sometimes does create a path forward to say, okay, like this is gonna move here, this is gonna move here, and now's the time.

Ken Babcock (26:45.988)

Yeah, I think that's really well said. I do want to come back to kind of this quantifiable piece because I, I think you outlined how you got to kind of balance that with some things that are opportunistic or, um, even just like the relationships you have across the org. But when you talk about measuring efficiencies and seeing that there might be an opportunity for efficiencies, how are, how are you measuring that? Like what is quantifiable? Because I think a lot of people here.

that and they're like okay finger to the wind like I think it's this there's probably some of that too

Jamie (27:21.718)

Yeah. I remember talking to some of my peer operators about this question and reading articles published on the topic and some cited 10% revenue increase or efficiency increases, the threshold. But even in those articles typically ended by saying that is just a finger in the air and it's something to look to. I think for me where I actually have seen quantifiable savings is in headcount.

and it's probably one of the easier things, arguably, to see. So if there is a structure where if you can combine roles and either one person can do it, or it even means that you can just make your next hired and more junior level because there's oversight, there's gonna be some savings there. I don't know if that will always be possible, but I do think it's a good place to start to kind of plan out.

today in one year and two years, what would my team need to look like to be successful in its current org structure? And what would my team look like to be successful in a different org structure, in a centralized or decentralized, depending on where you're starting, org structure? So I do think that's quantifiable. The second piece I would look for are things like vendors and vendor spend, honestly.

Jamie (28:47.166)

my own separate tool and can take advantage of a license maven or a company already has. Oftentimes you get discounted pricing on the number of licenses, depending on the payment structures. So I think that can lead to efficiency. And then the third piece, which is a little bit less quantifiable.

is overall success and retention of the team, right? Like if people are happier because they have specialization opportunities or growth paths or oversight in a different structure, they're probably gonna stay with you for longer, right? Or maybe people are looking for a change. So I think that can play into these types of decisions as well.

Ken Babcock (29:32.444)

Yeah. And the value of, of people staying with you longer, right? It's, it's not just, oh, it would, it would cost a lot of money to replace them, but it's also the knowledge that they have that they bring with them and how that unlocks efficiencies for others as well. It's like, okay, here's someone who has all the context. You mentioned trying to trace back, like how decisions were made a lot of times, like,

the most tenured people are going to know that. Right. And so, um, there's a ton of value there. As you're doing some of that head count planning, some of the vendor stuff, what role do, do tools and systems play? Like, is that part of the assumption of like, Hey, well, you know, if we organize the team this way, we give them access to this tool or the system, you know, there's some assumption around efficiency gains there. Is that, is that part of that analysis?

Jamie (30:02.264)

Yeah.

Jamie (30:29.894)

On the, yes, on the tooling and the system side of the house, honestly, in a perfect world, what that does is allow.

my team to scale sub-linearly. Like we should not have to hire 100 people every time we bring on 100 providers. And that's a silly example, but even we shouldn't have to hire five people or one person every time we bring on 100 or 1000 providers. So I think that's where tooling can really change the equation there.

and really make our workflows scalable. So we don't need to keep hiring people and honestly to go full circle to reduce the Google Sheet gremlins that we were talking about earlier today who I love dearly. But that's, I think really how tooling and systems come into place. I do think there are examples where

Different teams use shared toolings effectively, so I don't always think you need to co-locate or centralize to do so. Like we're actually, we've been thinking a lot about rolling out a new provider CRM where at least three or four different teams would be using it to make sure all the information was in the right place. So yeah, you don't always need to co-locate.

Ken Babcock (31:52.06)

Yeah, no, that's, and he talks about information. I wanna shift a little bit, but it's a natural segue. You know, information, knowledge, you know, that institutional piece I mentioned from tenured employees, documentation, these are all things that unlock scale in some way, right? You're giving people more context to do their job effectively. Can you talk a little bit about how you use documentation and knowledge?

to your advantage as you were going through some of these phases.

Jamie (32:26.838)

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's table stakes. This probably was one of the first things I really reinforced with my team when I got to Maven and have done so since then. But we are very, very tight on documentation, creating SOPs, standard operating processes, procedures.

theoretically housing them in a well organized Google Drive that we should admittedly revisit, but I think it's in a pretty good spot. But yeah, we could not possibly do our jobs without documentation, particularly given how many.

complex workflows need to be flawlessly executed, again, to ensure that members get their needs met. Like that's always what it comes down to. And this might honestly look like a 30 to 50 step workflow for...

Ken Babcock (33:24.005)

Yeah.

Jamie (33:31.346)

Again, the provider onboarding example, which might flex and does flex honestly for international providers versus domestic providers by the 30 specialties that we offer. All of that also holds true for our care advocate team and our care support teams that need to be configured in very specific ways and within our system, again, to make sure our members can see the provider and the care advocate that they're supposed to meet with.

Ken Babcock (33:59.46)

Yeah. And so you talked a little bit about geography, uh, the type of clinician, I mean, those introduce complexity and in a lot of ways, like the complexity that you're handling and creating simplicity for your members. Like that's, that's what creates a business, but what are the other things that introduce complexity into your workflows that require, like you said, flawless execution?

Jamie (34:34.378)

The geographic component, specialist component, honestly, anytime we launch a new product, right? So I talked a bit at the front when I came to Maven, it really was focused on maternity and then quickly built out its family building, fertility, postpartum, pediatrics, parenting, menopause. With each of those product offerings and each of those tracks, your...

recruiting providers with specific specialization. It's no longer just the OBGYN, it's the OBGYN with a license in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut that has a menopause subspecialty, right? Or it speaks Spanish. So it's all of these compounding factors that do really stress workflows and introduce complexity based off of markets we enter, products we expand into.

and really our growth decisions overall.

Ken Babcock (35:32.477)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. And, you know, I think it's a, it's a good PSA to all the, the builders and operators out there that, you know, the complexity that you introduce in your product.

Like it's only, it's only going to get more complex and more difficult. So staying ahead of documentation, staying ahead of, okay, how do we handle this thing so that you can prepare for scale, even when your product's changing, that's, that's so critical. So I love that. I love that takeaway. Um, I want to touch quickly on, uh, you know, a few things that you mentioned. So, you know, the provider onboarding piece, um, being a core focus, uh,

What, tying our metrics conversation, tying what we talked about earlier around provider onboarding, how did you measure that project specifically? Like, what was the success of, okay, hey, provider onboarding needs to be this. At some point, here's where we are today, how do we get there? What was that specific metric for you?

Jamie (36:29.134)

Thank you.

Jamie (36:41.706)

Yeah, on the provider onboarding side, we were really looking at time to onboard and those providers.

actively setting time and meeting with members on our platform, X days after contract signature, right? Like those are the two things that really matter. It matters for our forecasting. It matters for our member experience. So I would say those are two really...

critical components there. And then once providers are on our platform, my team also actually supports creating a standard set of metrics around.

we would like to take to really ensure clinical outcomes, ensure member experience, ensure provider satisfaction as well, whether it be things like closing out documentation within a certain period of time, or setting availability a certain number of days in advance to make sure again that members can get the care they need.

Ken Babcock (37:44.452)

Yeah, so cool. I would love to spend hours learning more about everything that you've taken on at Maven.

You know, we're reaching time on the episodes of Jamie. I wanted to just thank you for sharing all that. But before we really close it out, I've got two last questions for you. These ones should be easy. We've hinted at a few of these already, but, um, I'm going to start with, you know, what three software tools can't you live without right now? What are, we're absolutely essential to your day to day.

Jamie (38:17.774)

I would say Looker, Jira, and G Suite. And really that last one, because I just can't operate my life without it at this point. That is what Maven runs off of. It's also what I use personally. Jira is a ticketing management solution, which I just, as a company scales, we've been talking about, it's so critical. It helps my team function, helps the business function.

and Looker because it houses all my data. We're a very data focused team. I like to be able to go in and poke around.

Ken Babcock (38:51.768)

Yeah, G Suite, you know, it's funny. I had to make the switch back to Outlook in business school and man, I've fumbled. I was like, I can't use, I know people that can and do it really well and love it. But I was like, I'm too indoctrinated into the G Suite, Gmail and all that. I can't, I can't depart. So I totally get you there. And then my, my last question.

Jamie (39:01.762)

Stay safe.

Ken Babcock (39:19.704)

who's someone you follow, whether it be a group or an individual that makes you better at your job.

Jamie (39:29.31)

Yeah, I'd say this one is near and dear to my heart because I think it's really allowed me to get to where I am today. But I'm lucky to have a group of pure operators here in New York, even nationally, whether it's through a group like The Grind, I'll shout out there, who's been so important and really brings together women in VC, women in tech, women operators.

And they're the people I go to where, hey, what software did you use for this? What benchmark did you see there? How do you do a quick straw poll? Uh, so I, I highly encourage finding your people and, and leaning on them throughout your startup journey.

Ken Babcock (40:08.612)

That's awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you, Jamie. And thanks again for the time. Uh, and you know, maybe, maybe we'll bring you back for another episode. We can go deeper on Maven. Awesome. Thank you.

Jamie (40:18.274)

would love that. Thanks.

Ken Babcock (40:23.368)

Alright.