The State of Change Enablement

Ken Babcock (00:01.27)

Hey there everyone. We're doing something a little bit different this time around. So we've had a bunch of great guests on the Change Enablers podcast. We have another great guest today, but this one's gonna be a little bit different of a structure. So starting with this episode, on a quarterly basis, we're gonna talk about the state of change enablement. And I didn't think there was anybody better to talk with me about the state of change enablement than our own resident software training guy.

Rocco.

Rocco Seyboth (00:33.02)

It took you long enough to have me on the pod, Ken. Thank you. I'm pumped to be here.

Ken Babcock (00:35.109)

Yeah, I know.

Ken Babcock (00:39.338)

Rocco and I have been doing a zero listener podcast version of our own, where we just talk about this stuff. And so we figured, you know what, let's maybe do this for at least one person. So we wanted to start this podcast.

Rocco Seyboth (00:46.085)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (00:56.269)

Yeah. Q4 and Q1 is a really like hot time for change enablers. So like I'm excited to get into some stuff that our listeners are probably dealing with.

Ken Babcock (01:06.666)

It's all we're talking about, right? How was 2023? What would we have done differently? What's 2024 gonna look like? What's the change that we're gonna enact? So I too am pretty excited. And I think, you know, for the audience, we're trying to bring some topics that are gonna be most relevant to you. Not always stuff that's happening in the moment, but maybe some things that we've.

had some time to sit on and think about. We're gonna talk about some big news stories, some news stories that aren't as obvious, and some other things that are just gonna help you do your job. So I think we just jump in, Rocco. Let's talk about top news. And I brought a story. I think the way we're gonna do this is I'll bring a story, you bring a story. We tell people how relevant it is to them.

We'll use some internal Tango lingo. We like to refer to ourselves as the mangoes. So we're going to have the mango meter. The mango meter is basically going to say, how relevant is this to you based on our own opinion, our own very sophisticated opinion, and our own very sophisticated scale of mangoes.

Rocco Seyboth (02:13.323)

You were, there was a thing that happened a couple months ago that you were pretty hot on, so I have a feeling I know what your top news is.

Ken Babcock (02:20.654)

hot, fuming. I've cooled down a little bit. A little bit. But yeah, so I want to talk about Salesforce. We all know and love Salesforce. We all know and love Slack. Those two are one in the same now. And there was a story in October where Salesforce mandated the Slack team, about 3,000 people, take an entire week off for training.

And not just, you know, pie in the sky ambiguous training, but to complete trailhead Salesforce's internal training system, to complete trailhead to the level of being a ranger with what that all means, I don't really know, but it takes about 40 hours to do it. It's a full week. If you remember back in like elementary school when it was like drop everything and read Salesforce was going with drop everything and train. And.

I got pretty hot. You're right, you're right, Rock. I got pretty hot.

Rocco Seyboth (03:19.949)

That week just happened, right? So they scheduled that for the end of December.

Ken Babcock (03:24.338)

Yeah, it was basically to complete an annual training goal for the Slack team, who's sort of new to the Salesforce ecosystem.

Ken Babcock (03:39.066)

And this is one where like, I think this is fundamentally what's, what's really broken within large organizations and training. Yeah. I was reading a piece from HR dive, which is a human resources sort of L and D focused publication that was celebrating it because, you know, it serves their purpose. They're like, Oh, more and more companies are going to do this. They're just going to stop working. And they're going to train.

Um, but it's so disjointed and you know, my, my sort of take on this and why I actually want to like argue against the HR dives of the world is that this is just a, the, the wrong bandaid for the wrong type of wound. Um, we saw Salesforce's response to this. Employees were creating scripts that would go through the training automatically.

Nobody really wanted to complete it.

Rocco Seyboth (04:41.306)

Yeah, we were cheating. People were cheating.

Ken Babcock (04:43.906)

People were cheating just to get to ranger status. Which like, I don't know about you, but I had never heard of ranger status.

Rocco Seyboth (04:51.423)

I want, now I want it. I want to know how I can get it. I've spent a little bit of time in Trailhead myself.

Ken Babcock (04:54.358)

Yeah. Right.

Rocko Texas Ranger we could call you.

Rocco Seyboth (05:00.783)

Here's my question for you. What do you think the first thoughts were of all those Slack employees when they heard this?

Ken Babcock (05:08.93)

I think there's two big thoughts. Like, how am I supposed to do my day job? And how am I supposed to support our customers during this week?

Rocco Seyboth (05:19.383)

Yeah, I think that's underrated. I actually, I think that's underrated. I don't, I actually don't know many people that want, if I'm gonna take a week off of my most important work, I wanna be like on a beach in Mexico. I actually don't wanna take a week off of my most important projects and let all of my projects, customer tickets, and everything pile up if I'm not at least on a beach in Mexico.

I think I would be not excited to take a week off of my real work to do training.

Ken Babcock (05:54.339)

Not pumped.

Ken Babcock (05:59.874)

Yeah, and I mean, I think the reality is, is when push comes to shove, they're gonna have to support their customers. You can't message the Slack ecosystem and be like, hey, whoa.

We can't solve that bug this week. Like it's ranger week. No one's going to know what that means. And it doesn't matter. So many companies run on Slack. It's the infrastructure of communication. Not just, not just the tango, which we use it all the time, but I mean, so many companies and so here's what's going to happen. People need to take their 40 hours to complete ranger. They're also going to have to do their day jobs. And then that second thought that I was alluding to is like, what does ranger status get me, which is kind of what we've been talking about, like, is this

disconnected to our goals? Is this going to help Slack as a business? Do I get to decide like what my development areas are and what I can tackle? So for me, this that disconnect, I mean, I can't see this going well.

Rocco Seyboth (06:59.447)

Yeah. I...

I too am worried about how much training is actually going to get done in that week. If you work in a part of the organization or if your direct manager is not super focused on you achieving ranger status and isn't going to follow up on it, I think there is a scenario where actually a lot of people take that week off for training and then don't do any of it and actually spend time with their family for the holidays.

I, my first thought was, wow, this is a major hit for the, the whole micro learning crowd. So if you're, yeah.

Ken Babcock (07:46.69)

Pretty macro.

Rocco Seyboth (07:50.976)

If you're one of the people in learning and development who really is a big believer in micro learning, you're not gonna be super happy with this. Micro learning, for those of you who don't know, is the idea that...

we trickle out little bits of knowledge. Often those people say in the flow of work. I don't know how in the flow of work it really is, but you at least, it's the opposite of like big, long, four hour classroom trainings, right? There's a lot of micro learning that's done with the learning management system, which in a way is what Trailhead is. And you break up the trainings and the learnings into small chunks. Typically it's videos or like five to 15 minutes.

long, and you sprinkle them out, you email them out, or you drop them into Slack, or you make the person log in. You know, so you get a little bit at a time over time. Big, big hit for the micro learning crowd, because this is the exact opposite of that. If you, if you need to take an entire week off,

to do your learning, that's definitely not in the flow of work and that's definitely what's bigger than macro learning.

Ken Babcock (09:08.778)

And we've, and we've had some pretty forward thinking L and D leaders on the podcast and like I could see Ryan Krueger over at Lucid being like, how do you expect that everyone retains this if you're not applying it to your day to day work, if it happens one week a year? So I, I totally agree. Um,

Rocco Seyboth (09:33.047)

It's true. Yeah, it's true. I'm familiar enough with Trailhead to know that a lot of the Trailhead trainings are about operating internal systems better, like Salesforce. And so, yeah, it's one thing if you're taking a week off to sort of absorb general knowledge.

about soft skills or company culture, things like that. But if you're taking a training session, if you're trying to jam in a bunch of process knowledge about how to more effectively use your tools better, and then you absorb all of that in one week, and then you go away on vacation for the holidays, and then the first time you're gonna try to accomplish one of those processes in Salesforce is weeks or maybe months later. I mean, the likelihood that you're gonna remember any of that stuff is, it's tough.

Ken Babcock (10:22.082)

least you'll be a ranger. That's the that's the takeaway.

Rocco Seyboth (10:27.276)

Yeah. OK, so wait, so what are you giving this on the mango meter?

Ken Babcock (10:31.822)

I'm saying very scientific 3.7 because it's relevant enough in the sense that I think more and more training and enablement leaders might start asking for this and I'm hoping that people push back or at least have an articulated viewpoint.

Rocco Seyboth (10:37.457)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (10:54.559)

You think more training and enablement leaders are gonna ask their CEO to take a week off for training?

Ken Babcock (11:00.938)

So, so I think, you know, there are two, there are two types, right? There are the forward thinking L and D leaders who understand that applying knowledge in the flow of work.

applying knowledge to the tasks and goals that need to get done. There's there's that cohort. But then there are the other people who are sort of hanging on. I've invested so much in this LMS. I've invested so much in this. These videos I've created. I've invested so much in these courses where people need to enter a room and sit down. And so I think it's relevant enough because folks are going to hear that Salesforce did it and they're going to.

That's how we put our stuff to good use. That's, you know, this problem that we've had around people retaining information, attending my trainings, completing my modules. That could be solved by a week. And so I'm hoping people are smart enough to understand that that, that dedicated week is not the solution. So it's relevant enough, but I really don't want this to become the norm. So I'm not, not giving it any more than a 3.7.

Rocco Seyboth (11:59.323)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (12:07.267)

Yeah, yeah, I give it three, I give it three mangoes. I agree that it's something that if you're in training or enablement, you gotta, you have to pay close attention to this. If for no other reason than be prepared to argue against it. But I will say that I'm not giving, I'm not rating it higher because I'm not surprised.

There was a Benioff was in the news, CEO of Salesforce was in the news earlier in the year because he said something a little controversial about remote work, which is that they found that their younger and their employees that were earlier in their career were struggling to work remotely compared to their other more senior employees. And Benioff's

Primary takeaway and some of the articles where that were written about his about this research they put out Was that it was all about training and enablement there wasn't that they were not doing enough good enough job of onboarding those employees and training them And so there's sort of he left some breadcrumbs that I mean in many ways it's really

If you are in training and enablement at Salesforce, how great to have a CEO that really thinks about new hire onboarding and enablement like that. But so for that reason, I don't know that I don't agree with the execution, but I'm not surprised that Salesforce is trying to show how much they value training. So three mangoes.

Ken Babcock (14:00.174)

Fair enough. All right. Well, Rocco, I know you brought a story too. We'll close the book on Salesforce because we could go forever, but I know you brought a story. Do you want to share that with the audience?

Rocco Seyboth (14:13.695)

Yeah, yeah. So probably everyone heard that Atlassian, the king of the knowledge base and the maker of many tools that big companies use and rely on like Confluence, but also Jira, bought Loom, the video company, for a billion dollars. And so that...

is I'm just going to come out and say up front, I'm giving this five mangoes on the mango meter. Yeah, I'll tell you why I think this might be the biggest story for change enablers of the entire year for 2023. So the-

Ken Babcock (14:51.746)

Five out of five. Five-hole mango.

Rocco Seyboth (15:11.055)

I mean, again, first of all, confluence is one of the two or three biggest knowledge bases that is used by large organizations, maybe second only to SharePoint. Right. So it's a critical part of the training and enablement tech stack. Loom is there tens of millions of people made a loom in 2023.

and their five million loom videos get made every single month. So you're taking these two like powerhouses in the training and enablement stack and you're, and you're merging them and they're actually both great companies. So, uh, in that respect, um, I think it's like a really interesting move. And I,

I have high hopes that they'll do great things when they combine the technology. But I have a couple of really big concerns. So first one, a couple of predictions actually. So I think the first thing that we can assume is gonna happen now that these two technologies are combined is that you're gonna see a lot more connections between...

Loom and Confluence, and in particular, I think they're gonna make it really easy for people to take a Loom video they just created and sync it into a folder or a Wikian Confluence. So I predict that over the next year or so that Loom videos are going to proliferate inside of people's Confluence knowledge bases. And I don't know about you, Ken, but I...

I'm not looking forward to that. I don't know if that's a good thing. What do you think? Let's meet in the loo.

Ken Babcock (17:00.782)

Good for Loom. No, I agree. I mean, I think Loom and I reference Brittany, who we had on the podcast. She had a great framework for thinking about it, which was, you know, you create a video when the when the voiceover, the tone matters.

Rocco Seyboth (17:06.291)

What about the sides, Luke?

Ken Babcock (17:25.226)

You don't create it for every single thing that you're doing. And so, you know, where, where people get a little bit lost with loom is when they're creating videos for process, they're creating videos to go through. A slide deck things that, you know, I doubt tone matters a ton. Um, and so, you know, yeah, exactly. I hope that end users of confluence or JIRA.

are using Loom in the right ways and making a conscious effort to separate what should be a video versus what should be a process guide, what should be written documentation.

Rocco Seyboth (18:03.267)

Yeah, exactly. So, and this ties into my second prediction, but yeah, Loom started and became a powerful tool in part because of their go-to-market strategy. For the longest time, the top of their website just said, use Loom to eliminate a bunch of meetings you don't need. And so you eliminated meetings with Loom by recording videos that were...

sharing ideas or communicating things, right? You didn't now need a meeting to do a one-way share of an idea or to communicate an update. Frankly, those are the worst meetings. We all hate those meetings. Those are the meetings that could have been an email, could have been a Slack, and they could have been a loom, right? And so that's beautiful. And what you pointed out started to happen. Unfortunately, people started to abuse loom, right? Where...

Rocco Seyboth (19:01.023)

lazy trainers, sorry if you've used Loom to create a training video, but you're probably, we're not all, I've done it, so we're not all lazy. But trainers who in the moment they're feeling lazy, record a video to go through a step-by-step procedure instead of taking the time to maybe make like a really nice how-to guide with screenshots because it's way easier to record the Loom than it is to like do the work of putting together the nice standard operating procedure.

That unfortunately became really popular. So now again, even before this acquisition, you had a ton of loom videos and knowledge bases to try to teach people how to go through 10, 20, 50 step software procedures. That is brutal for end users. In fact, we did some proprietary research in 2023. I wrote a blog called the truth about training guides. People hate videos. In fact, they hate them more than reading.

uh, text heavy articles, which was a little bit of a surprise to us. Part of the reason I think is that, um, in the video, you tend to give a lot more context than maybe the user actually wants. Um, you also, if you're just trying to do a quick thing, you don't want to watch a 10 minute video to do a process that should take 30 seconds. So this leads to my second prediction about this, Ken. I think.

2024 is gonna be the year of Loom backlash. So I predict that Loom is actually gonna get more popular, but it's gonna get more popular for the wrong reasons. So the people who love Atlassian products and really build their job around Confluence and Jira are gonna start using Loom even more to do their work.

And that is going to mean more standard operating procedures and trainings getting documented in long Loom videos. If you use the free version of Loom, you get cut off after, what is it, five minutes. But if you use the paid version, you can go as long as you want. And so I think 2024, we're going to see a backlash against Loom, which is an incredible product, but the backlash is going to be against

Rocco Seyboth (21:21.659)

people abusing Loom and using these videos for the wrong reasons.

Ken Babcock (21:23.974)

Yeah, it's, it's misuse, which, which I think you're right. And I do think back to the times where I've had to interact with JIRA. I've never been an owner of JIRA, but the people that are really passionate about JIRA want highly structured data coming in and they want issues categorized in the right way. They want points of contact. Uh, they want detail.

And another thing that I think, you know, loom sometimes lacks is that structure. Cause it, cause it is, it's just, it's so easy to turn it on. And I'm going to say, well, there there's a video. I don't need to add all that structured data. And so the teams managing JIRA, I think they're going to be the ones that are frustrated first.

Rocco Seyboth (22:09.359)

Yeah, that could be true. Video is not going anywhere. If anything, it's still in its early infancy of how popular it's gonna get. Just look at the explosion of TikTok. I saw some TikTok numbers for 2023. They grew dramatically in all age segments. And people are increasing an uptick of talking about how they're using it.

using it for work. So it's not just young people using TikTok for dancing anymore. It's people of all ages using TikTok for everything, including work. And so, but if you look at why people love TikTok, those videos are 15 to 60 seconds. That's the kind of video I want. I don't want a 10 minute loom video to show me how to do a process that will only take me 25 seconds.

Ken Babcock (22:56.361)

size.

Ken Babcock (23:09.026)

How many times have we been in a Loom video where you're like, rewind, I need to see that again or like, let me scroll ahead because that's the step I need to get to. Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (23:15.491)

It's brutal. Oh absolutely, no, you're scrolling and you're scrolling and you're trying to find the right moment.

Ken Babcock (23:21.226)

All right, I buy it. I buy five mangoes. I would have probably done like 4.6 just because I'm. I don't know the false precision on my end. I had to go 4.6, but five. Um, all right, let's, let's talk about some, some not so obvious news. I think, I think folks probably heard about those two stories. Thank you for indulging in a Rocco and I take on those, but not so obvious.

Rocco Seyboth (23:32.443)

Yeah. Alright.

Ken Babcock (23:50.094)

A few things we're gonna talk about here every time we do this episode. We're gonna have a chart of the day, which I know is kind of ironic, especially if you're listening to this audio only. We're gonna talk about.

Rocco Seyboth (23:58.735)

Hey, Greg. Yeah. You know what people want more of on podcasts? They want charts.

Ken Babcock (24:02.89)

Yeah, charts on podcasts. We're gonna talk about a quote of the day and then a quick follow of the day. So I think this chart that I can talk about, I can voice it over. One of my favorite follows.

Rocco Seyboth (24:16.091)

There'll be a video of this so you can at least see it if you're watching the video.

Ken Babcock (24:19.574)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll pipe it in, but I'll describe it enough that you can visualize it. You're on your drive, you're thinking about bar charts. I know you are. And so that's what we're doing today. So Peter Walker at Carta, amazing follow on LinkedIn. He's the head of insights at Carta. If you don't know what Carta is, it is the repository for almost every single startups.

Rocco Seyboth (24:32.426)

That's what change enablers do.

Ken Babcock (24:47.934)

capitalization table. And so they have a unique insight on the number of venture backed companies that are out there, how much money they've raised, who they've raised it from, what their runway looks like. There's a whole host of data. Now, they anonymize all of it. They aggregate a lot of it. In a chart that really caught my eye,

was actually around startups shutting down. So I don't want to be too morbid, but why I think this is relevant for change enablers, I will get to. But I'm gonna talk about five years, 2019 through 2023. 2019, we had 27 startups shut down, startups that had raised 10 million or more, 27. 2020, we had 40. 2021, we had 34. 2022, we had 47.

Let's just say for all intents and purposes, that's largely similar with a few numbers here and there. 2020-30, and this data was through November. We already had 112 startups shut down that had raised over $10 million. So 238% higher than 2022. That's a big jump.

And it's a little bit surprising given the amount of money that they raised, right? When, when companies raise a lot of money, you think, oh, they have a ton of runway. They're going to be around for a while. Why does this matter for change enablers? We're all looking for the most cutting edge software tools, companies, vendors to use, and a lot of times that means straying away from the incumbents, trying to find that, that new company that's doing something different.

Why is this these shutdowns happening? We had this venture boom in 2021 and 2022 where tons of companies were getting funded. Tons of companies were.

Rocco Seyboth (26:52.463)

Yeah, 10 million was a seed round where you barely had to bring a pitch deck with you to the meeting.

Ken Babcock (26:56.121)

Heh.

Ken Babcock (27:00.741)

Yeah, just a handshake and a thank you.

Rocco Seyboth (27:03.495)

Great idea. Found her with a great smile. You were it.

Ken Babcock (27:07.566)

That's right. And so, you know, for most companies, when they raise, they tend to look at a two-year time horizon to make that money last. And so now we're in 2023. We're about two years later from the peak of the boom. And so this data of 2023 is pretty scary. Lots of companies shutting down. In 2024, it's going to be even higher. And so what this means for change enablers,

is that when you're evaluating software vendors, you're trusting people with your data, your process, your workflows, you need to be asking about what is the longevity of this company? How far can I trust this company?

to be responsible for my critical workflows because I know plenty of folks who got an email from a company saying, hey, on this date, we're suspending service because we're shutting down. That's totally derailing. And so I know a lot of folks are taking on software rollouts, delivering these to your company. You don't wanna have to peel that back in three months.

Rocco Seyboth (28:11.931)

So yeah, speaking as an ambivalent adopter, ambivalent adopter is, if you haven't heard Ken and I talk about this, we're nice people, we care about the company we work for, we care about our jobs, we wanna do a good job, but we are not always interested in learning all of your new processes for all of the software programs.

that you want us to use to do our job, or that inferior is supposed to make us more productive for our job. Little bit ironic that I'm the software training guy here as an ambivalent adopter, but actually I think it gives me a good insight into the mindset of all the people that you change enablers have to train and try to get to adopt your process. Speaking as an ambivalent adopter myself, if you make me...

Ken Babcock (28:49.259)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (29:05.639)

come to multiple meetings about the new software that you're rolling out. Make me pay attention. In theory, I'm supposed to memorize all these processes for this new thing. I'm supposed to forget the way I was doing it before.

I've got to go through this trial and error period. You make me put all that mental energy into a tool that I use to do my job. And then you take it away from me a few months later. I think you're gonna have a revolt on your hands. I have too many important things to do for you to train me on a tool, retrain me on another one, and then.

Ken Babcock (29:31.043)

Hahaha

Rocco Seyboth (29:42.447)

Right, because I started it will take me as an I started to tango 18 months ago. So there was a bunch of things I would have had. I would have had to learn if you then if you then switch our ATS that we use to interview or CRM and then you do it again because that company goes out of business. Now it's three different sets of procedures that I had to learn in a very short amount of time. It's it's going to crush me. It's going to take my focus away from what I really want to do, which is my actual job.

Ken Babcock (30:07.539)

Yeah.

Ken Babcock (30:13.627)

We don't want that. So let's get tactical with this and then I'm going to kick it to Rocco. But what are the things you should be asking? How much runway does the company have? What's their foresight into their next fundraising round? What's the confidence level that they'll be able to hit that?

Rocco Seyboth (30:14.779)

Hmm.

Ken Babcock (30:31.518)

And asking questions about the customer base. You know, is there enough customers supporting this company, enough revenue supporting this company such that I can trust it? So don't shy away from asking those questions. Rocko, you gotta quote, you gotta quote your own care of this.

Rocco Seyboth (30:45.009)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

Well, no, I just wanted to say like before, like, you know, an important skill.

People underestimate, especially for change enablers, a lot of change enablers, your job is to implement technology. You kind of have to become a little bit of a expert on procurement and vendor management. You can't just find the thing with the best features, right? In fact, when you bring that technology forward, a lot of times the company that has the features that you like the most is not the one that ultimately your CFO and your bosses will select because there's so many other factors.

So that's a great one. Not obvious off the bat, but really relevant for change enablers. I have another one that I'm pretty excited about. And it also involves remote work. Shocking that we would have a.

Rocco Seyboth (31:49.607)

a new story from 2023 that involves remote work that we want to talk about. I remember actually, so the article I'm talking about was the top most engaged article on LinkedIn for all of 2023. And I remember reading this article and even the first time I read it, I didn't make the connection.

to how this would affect change enablers. But in preparing for this 2023 recap episode, it jumped out to me again, and I wanna talk about a study. So there is a global organization who's running pilots in a lot of different companies for going from a five-day work week to a four-day work week. And so...

the data for 61 companies that piloted a four-day workweek in the UK, these are UK-based companies, the data came out and it's pretty shocking and has major insights and I think ramifications for change enablers. So let me run you through a couple of the data points from the study itself.

So the 61 companies that participated in the six month pilot had a total of 3000 employees. Some of them are really as small as like five or 10 people. Some of them had hundreds of employees. After the six month pilot, 56 of the 61 companies that piloted the four day workweek stayed on the four day workweek. And of the five that didn't immediately

say that we're going to stay on a four-day workweek. Three of them just needed more information. Only two of the 61 said, nope, we are going back to the five-day workweek. So overwhelmingly companies decided that was better for them and their employees. Here's some of the reasons why they said it was better and why they decided to stay on it. So first of all, employees reported that...

Rocco Seyboth (34:03.811)

they were getting more sleep, having less stress, and less mental health issues. So that's pretty interesting. Employees also said, just point blank, like would you stay at your company if you had to go back to the five day work week? 15% of them said,

there was no amount of money in the world that could get them to go back to working for a company that had a, that had a four day, that had a five day work week. And about a third of the people surveyed out of the 3000 said they would need a 26 to 50% pay increase to go back to the, to the four day work week. So, um, I think, I think this is pretty incredible. One other really important point was that

Ken Babcock (34:48.482)

Ha!

Rocco Seyboth (34:58.871)

Um, there was no adverse effect to the businesses during this time. Not all of these were like hot startups that were trying to grow overall revenue for all 61 of these companies stayed about, stayed about the same. So nobody saw like a measurable decrease in productivity or, or revenue. Of course, one thing you might expect is that there are way fewer resignations for those 60 companies during that, during that six month period. So I think.

I'm surprised that more people aren't talking about this, number one. So first question for you Ken is, why don't we have a four day work week at Tango?

Ken Babcock (35:40.712)

That, you know, I was waiting for that. I thought this was a, I thought this was going to be a pitch as soon as you got halfway through it. I was like, what's Rocco, what's Rocco doing here? You know, it's in

Rocco Seyboth (35:51.499)

Serious question. How do we get a four-day work week at Tango?

Ken Babcock (35:55.89)

I think all of our customers need to first adopt a four-day workweek because my perspective on this, and again, I looked at the data that you shared, a lot of it's self-reported, so it's a little tricky. There's not a third party measuring outcomes. Maybe it's that revenue number. Revenue is a little bit of a lagging indicator, so I question that. But

Rocco Seyboth (36:01.125)

Yeah.

Ken Babcock (36:23.69)

To me, the reason I have a five day work week, or at least, you know, maybe, maybe I'll bend a little bit, staff your company for five days a week is to align with your customer base because your customer base is going to need you. Things are going to come up. You know, you can't say, Oh, you encountered this, you know, devastating bug on a Wednesday. Well, Wednesday's Wednesday is not a, not a work day for us.

Rocco Seyboth (36:51.611)

We don't work on one's this.

Ken Babcock (36:52.958)

Yeah. So that's the challenge that I have with this. And I think also too, my friends in the survey world might say that, you know, there were some leading questions here. I think it's challenging to take this data as truth. So sorry, Tango team.

Rocco Seyboth (37:14.443)

Yeah, so I actually disagree with you, but here's what I think is really incredible about this idea and the thought exercise that I think all change enablers should go through, is what if we did want to go to a four day work week?

What if the CEO came and asked me how we could do this, right? What if I was working at a company that wanted to be a part of one of these, one of these pilots. So there was, when this research came out of this from organization who ran the study in the UK, quite a bit was, was written about it. And I read, I read all the articles.

and even listen to a couple of podcasts, you know, 2023 that were related to this, to this topic. I think what's pretty interesting is like what you need to do.

there were a lot of themes that people agreed like what you need to do, right? Including the companies that participated in the, in the, in the survey. So everyone agrees that you're, you're basically dealing with the challenge of like how do you do more? How do you do more with less? Right? Um, and you're to do more with less, you need to cut out a lot of the work that doesn't matter that maybe we never needed to be doing. So we only have 32 hours now and we don't have 40 hours. We want to cut those eight hours of stuff.

that probably we never needed to be doing to begin with and what's left over is 32 hours of more meaningful Impactful work now my question is how do you actually do this? So again, there was some things people said More async communication, right? We waste a lot of time

Rocco Seyboth (39:03.671)

on one-on-one Zooms or meetings. I think I agree with that actually. More technology and automation was a universal theme of like how to do how to do more with less. And another one was like better onboarding and training. My concern is

Ken Babcock (39:16.471)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (39:24.527)

You can't just hand wave those three things, right? It's not trivial to find technology in automation you can implement in your business that just...

Immediately gives you a lift actually it's the opposite Forrester put out this incredible the industry analyst Forrester put out this incredible research In the second half of last year that said for sales teams specifically When you introduce new technology that in theory supposed to save them time and make them more productive The thing that always happens in the first six months is it makes them less productive Probably means there's a lot of ambivalent adopters out there like me who actually

get confused and struggle to work through that process change. So that's kind of one concern I had. And again, when it comes to better onboarding and training, you can't just hand wave that. We've been training people the same way for decades. We expect them to memorize a lot of stuff.

you know, upfront to go do their job. And then when it's time to apply that knowledge that they need, they probably haven't used it in weeks or months. They probably did not memorize it. And so now they need to go back to, they need to like ask their coworker, ask their manager, dig it up in a knowledge base. If they're using a confluence knowledge base, maybe they find one of those 12 minute long loom videos that gotta go through it. So I guess my question to you is let's,

Play doubles advocate with me for a minute. So Tango's not gonna switch to a five day work week yet. But what would we have to do if we were gonna do that? And how can change enablers apply that learning to maybe just cut out some of the work they shouldn't be doing now in their five day work week?

Ken Babcock (41:20.778)

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think there are a lot of parallels to...

just prioritization exercises in general. And one that I really like is this idea of managing to constraints. And so thinking about what's constraining your business today. And that, from achieving maybe your top goals or your top outcomes or your top priorities, I think that's great. Now flip that on its head, I think what we would need to do to say, hey, you know what? We're gonna spend 20% less time per week.

is, you know, we basically have to say, Hey, here's an artificial constraint, or maybe here's a real constraint if we actually switch. What are we giving up? What are we what are we going to stop doing? What are we saying no to? And you know, as a startup is a growing startup, that's always hard. Everything feels like a big opportunity. There's data points coming your way feedback coming your way all the time. But

I do think that introducing a constraint like that, that's very clear, 20% less, means you've gotta go through the process of saying, what is everything that we're doing? What's the level of effort? And what would it take to get us to a workload that reflects how much time we're gonna be spending in office? It sounds really straightforward when I say it, that's a really hard exercise.

Rocco Seyboth (42:46.507)

Yeah, it reminds me too of your conversation with Travis and talking about the process audit that he does, which really allows him to go through. And I think he does it every quarter, right? And he identifies a lot of processes through that. That best case scenario, they get delegated into one of they get sorted into one of three buckets.

Ken Babcock (42:51.406)

to ask about it. Yeah.

Ken Babcock (43:03.796)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (43:16.259)

He finds processes that really smart people are doing that are probably too menial for them that can then be delegated to a freelancer or someone, you know, someone else, right? The second one is you can automate it. And the third one is just cut it. So I think the first thing you might wanna do in conjunction with that sort of...

Ken Babcock (43:35.275)

Yeah.

Rocco Seyboth (43:42.619)

that constraint that can drive a lot of great behaviors that is like something similar like Travis's process audit.

Ken Babcock (43:49.279)

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, it's interesting. I don't think we're doing it, but it's.

Rocco Seyboth (43:55.665)

What's the one thing you would immediately have to do less of if you had to constrain your work week to 32 hours?

Ken Babcock (44:03.318)

Man, I mean, I do think as a company, again, I come back to everything in a startup feels like a greenfield opportunity. So every net new idea, every net new product feature request feels like an opportunity to do something.

We would have to pare down on those. Like that's the thing we'd have to cut down on. We'd have to be very clear about who we're serving, what we're building for that ICP, and just be a lot more rigorous about it.

Rocco Seyboth (44:39.523)

Yeah. Yeah, for me, I spend too much time looking at all the fun pictures and memes in our random, random Slack channel. So I probably had to cut down on that one a little bit. It's good times. It's good times, but it wouldn't fit in my 32-hour work week.

Ken Babcock (44:49.92)

Ha!

Ken Babcock (44:58.91)

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. But those, you know, those are fun. All right. We've got two folks we want to introduce for the follow of the day. This is the last segment of Not So Obvious News. So I'll plug a quick one and then.

Rocco, I want to hear more about Cassidy, the one that you're bringing in, but quick one for all the change enablers out there. Sean Lane, formerly of the field operations team at Drift, runs a podcast called the operations podcast. Very relevant to all the ops change enablers out there. He's posting a bunch on LinkedIn. It's a good mix of humor, data.

Rocco Seyboth (45:16.387)

Yeah.

Ken Babcock (45:42.686)

conversation. So, I highly recommend taking a look at Sean, following him and seeing what he has to say. Rocco, do you want to share a little bit about Cassidy, our other follow?

Rocco Seyboth (45:52.972)

Yeah, I have a so I have a bone to pick with my with my follow so I'll tell you no I'll tell you why I'll tell you why he's great and like incredible and I learned so much but man he posted something a couple months ago that I that that's been grinding me that I want to

Ken Babcock (46:01.109)

The anti-follow.

Rocco Seyboth (46:16.323)

I want to tell them about. So yeah, there's actually quite a few people at this company called Refine Labs that you should be following. You should be following the CEO of Refine Labs, Chris. You should definitely be following. So the person we're gonna talk about today is Cassidy Shield. Cassidy is the chief revenue officer at Refine Labs. They post mostly about

revenue operations, sales and marketing operations, enabling revenue teams, a lot of the systems and technology and processes that are related to revenue teams. But if you're any kind of change enabler, any kind of sysadmin, any kind of IT manager supporting revenue teams, any kind of L&D or training professional supporting revenue teams, or really anyone in any kind of operational role.

Chris and Cassidy are incredible follows. Now, Q4 and Q1 are the times when you have to do a ton of planning and make a ton of really big decisions for revenue teams, right? Like, what's our target? How much revenue can we generate? How are we gonna do that?

Who do we need to hire throughout the business? What business plans can we make in 2024 based on how much revenue is coming in? And Cassidy shared an incredible post that basically said, our CRM data is a mess. Now he's paraphrasing.

He says, our CRM data is a mess. This is the number one issue I hear preventing marketing and sales progress. He talks to a lot of revenue leaders from a lot of different size companies. I was kind of shocked by that. Like...

Ken Babcock (48:13.59)

That's number one?

Rocco Seyboth (48:16.183)

Yeah, now he goes on to make an argument. On the surface, you wouldn't think our CRM data is a mess would be the number one thing. But he makes an argument that actually completely makes sense. So you can't make decisions if you don't have the analytics and the dashboards and the reports that tell you what's going on in your business. So if you don't know why you're winning and losing deals.

If you don't know where your best customers come from, like what marketing campaigns they come from, if you don't know how much pipeline you have right now, if you don't know...

where deals fall out of your pipeline. If you don't know how long it takes for you to close a customer from the time you meet them, if you don't know why you're losing deals, you can't make decisions, and that affects the whole business, right? That doesn't just affect sales and marketing. That those answering those questions are probably.

among the most important questions that the board and the CEO care about because they affect all the other decisions in the business. And if you think about it, if your CRM is a mess, the reports coming out of your CRM that are supposed to help you answer those questions are a mess. You therefore can't run your business. So it actually completely makes sense. And that's...

one of the many smart things that you'll learn from Cassidy. Here's where I have a bone to pick with Cassidy. So Cassidy goes on to tell you how to solve this problem. He says, the fix doesn't need to be a massive transformation. Here's all you have to do. Identify the data you need to answer important questions. Find the appropriate resources to make the changes.

Rocco Seyboth (50:15.323)

automate as much data collection as possible, don't rely on manual data entry. Train your team when you need to train them and hold them accountable and show them great examples. I hate that, I hate that. So I think Cassidy, I love you, I've learned so much from you.

I think you have diagnosed the problem and the importance of this problem perfectly, and I think you've completely missed the boat on the solution. You cannot hand wave and say it's just easy and hand wave, just train your team. Just tell them how important it is to input data into Salesforce. Just find the right resources. As a change enabler.

you probably also get how much, how many dots are missing to connect the real solution to that problem and the hand waving solutions that Cassidy points out. So what are your first reactions to that, Ken? Obviously you're going through this right now. You are working with our sales and marketing leadership to figure out what every decision we need to make for our 2024 plan.

and you're using the best data you have available, which comes from our CRM. So what comes to mind for you?

Ken Babcock (51:38.07)

I think it's a really good point. You know, I didn't, I didn't quite think about it that way, especially, especially the piece from the massive transformation in it, not needing to be that. I do think though, you know, based on what you shared and based on the decisions that we're making internally, you've, you've got to, you know, marry that quantitative data with some sort of qualitative understanding of like, how much do we trust this?

is what we're hearing on calls backing this up and not lean so heavily into data. And I say this as a former data scientist, right? One of my one of my favorite managers of all time used to say all models are wrong, but some are useful. And I believe that to my core. Now, you want your data to be as right as possible. So you're making the right decisions that I buy into. But.

I think when you're setting these plans and you're working with sales and marketing leadership on, you know, what is the data telling us? It's really, really important to know when we can trust it and when we can say, Hey, this actually backs up what we're hearing. And so I guess a spin, that's a spin that I would add on this. Like, I think there is a much bigger transformation than what Cassidy's talking about. But I also think like, we need to have the ability to gut check that data.

Rocco Seyboth (53:05.351)

Yeah, so I completely agree with that. The problem I have, so yeah, I don't even care. You as the CEO, if I'm the operations manager, the sysadmin for the CRM or all the places where this important data's coming from, it's up to you to make the decisions. Once I, but if I don't give you the right data, you can't do that. Here's the problem that I have with it. So...

Rocco Seyboth (53:37.491)

The idea that you can just automate away and eliminate the manual data entry, that's never happened. That's never happened. Manual data that at a certain point, your sales and marketing people are going to have to input data that you can't get from anywhere else and operate the system.

And if they don't follow the process, your standard operating procedure for what data they input and what fields they put it into, and then how they click the buttons to tell you things that are going on with their deals, there is no amount of automation that can solve for that. And you can't just pull them in a room and say, hey, sales reps, we know you've been ignoring your Salesforce CRM hygiene for your entire 20 year career, but you know what, maybe you just didn't realize

that data was to us so we're gonna we want you to start doing that now. Here's some PowerPoint slides about the 70 different procedures in Salesforce that you need to do perfectly right so our reports are right. I think that is a complete joke. In fact I did a webinar with some rev ops experts a couple months ago for the rev ops co-op community and one of the things we talked about was that like

Speaking of ambivalent adopters, sales reps, ambivalent adopters. You wanna know why they're ambivalent adopters? They know the only thing that matters is the revenue they close. And that they can get away with all manner of other sins, including not following up on Salesforce hygiene. And still get away with it. So the absolute only thing that you're gonna do to get them to input the data correctly is to make it so brainlessly easy for them to do

that it's just no skin off their back, right? If you're asking them for a favor to care about hygiene and manual data entry, they're just never gonna do it. And frankly, sales reps have so many tools to use and so many processes for each of those, asking them to memorize a bunch of processes, I think is a bad use of their time anyway.

Rocco Seyboth (55:52.835)

We actually, we only want them to sell. And so that's where real time enablement comes in. We don't believe in that traditional approach. It doesn't have to be sales reps. It could be anybody operating technology, right? Like don't make your important people memorize.

a bunch of Salesforce processes that are likely to change anyway, right? Let them worry about selling and customers and your product and competitors. And you know, real time enablement calls for not doing that traditional training where you just put the knowledge they need to know about how to do all the processes right inside Salesforce or whatever your CRM is.

make it brainlessly easy to follow the processes so they don't need to think or certainly watch a long loom video or anything like that. So that was my, so definitely follow Cassidy and Chris and the crew at Refined Labs. And if you're trying to solve that problem of how...

to improve the data quality so that the insight coming out of the CRM can help you make better decisions. You can't just hand wave better training and whatever Cassidy said in the post.

Ken Babcock (57:16.61)

You cannot expect a behavior change if that behavior change isn't aligned with the incentives. I think that's my big takeaway from what you're saying. If you're expecting behavior change from your team, make sure it reflects a positive or a higher likelihood for them to achieve a compensation goal or a compensation plan or a quota. Otherwise...

Rocco Seyboth (57:25.411)

No.

Rocco Seyboth (57:41.859)

And if you can't do that, if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is and say, we won't pay you commission for this deal unless you perfectly updated Salesforce, then the only other chance you have is to make it so easy for them to do that, that they'll just do it anyway, even despite the incentives not being entirely aligned.

Ken Babcock (58:01.13)

Yeah, I think you're going to have a bad sales culture if data entry is the unlock for commission. So, um, totally hear you on that. Rocco. Uh, that's a really good way to think about it and, uh, agree the, the team at refined labs puts out some great content and, you know, maybe even might get you a little riled up, um, speaking about riled up, I want to just.

Rocco Seyboth (58:23.579)

I have a bone to pick with you now. So the next segment we like to call the On Second Thought segment. And again, actually, Ken, you're a really good follower on LinkedIn too. People should follow you. But there was a video on your LinkedIn feed recently from a really amazing episode of the Change in Ambers Pod that you did.

Ken Babcock (58:25.395)

Okay, yeah.

Ken Babcock (58:33.198)

I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Rocco Seyboth (58:52.247)

um was someone who I'm a really big fan of, Hilary Curran from Guru. But I do have a bone to pick with you about one of the moments in that in that episode, which was um yeah so um Hilary was talking about um knowledge bases and she was saying that at Guru they have a policy where if a knowledge base article

Ken Babcock (59:03.639)

Pick a where.

Rocco Seyboth (59:21.955)

has not been viewed or updated in 60 days, they automatically archive it. And her rationale for this was that if it hasn't been updated in 60 days or viewed in 60 days, that means the information is no longer valid or valuable, and therefore it should not be cluttering up the knowledge base anymore. And you know, I...

I couldn't disagree, I couldn't, Hillary said a lot of smart things, but I couldn't disagree more. So I wonder if on second thought, you have anything new you would have said or any different questions you would have asked Hillary in that moment on the pod.

Ken Babcock (01:00:10.922)

me on the spot. I guess that's the intention of this segment is revisit some of those episodes and think about, all right, you know, we've had some time to sit on this. What would we say now? I think one of the challenges that I see with what Hillary said is we're effectively saying that time is really the only attribute that determines whether something

is relevant and up to date. So if it's 60 days old, it's too old. You know, thinking about that now, that feels like an arbitrary measure. Like instead you should be trying to understand how often is this knowledge applied? How often are people successful?

applying this knowledge because if it's 60 days old, but hey, 61 days ago, we defined the best process, the best piece of knowledge, everybody in the company uses it. That shouldn't be archived. So time is that absolute metric for relevance to me feels relatively oversimplified.

Rocco Seyboth (01:01:25.415)

Yeah, I agree with that. Although I can see why, you know, if you did think time was the... Well, so they had two, you know, they drew a line in the sand. So if it wasn't updated or used in 60 days, at a certain point you'd have to draw an arbitrary line. Maybe they have some... We didn't ask her if she had any research to back up why it was 60 days versus 30 or 90 days. Here's the problem I have with it.

I have met probably no fewer than about a hundred change enablers, L and D operations pros, sysadmins, knowledge managers for that matter in 2023, who all said a version of the following. It doesn't matter how good the content is.

that I put in the knowledge base, or how often I update it, no one goes in there and looks at it, no matter what I do. So the notion that no one is using the content in the knowledge base, and therefore we're gonna archive it, we have to separate.

the quality and usefulness of the content from the fact that anyone's using it. The fact that if no one's looking at an article in your knowledge base for 60 days, I think you should not draw the conclusion that means the content is not valuable. I think you should draw the conclusion that you're asking people to use your knowledge base when they don't wanna do it, okay? So.

Personally, I believe there's some great use cases for a knowledge base, right? I think knowledge bases are great for if you are that change enabler, that process expert, that operations pro, you have, Nick is a Tango customer, he talks about hit by the bus documentation. There's somewhere where you just have to put the right standard operating procedure for everything so that if you leave.

Rocco Seyboth (01:03:25.159)

or you have a team of people that decide on those processes, you know this is the gold standard and the next person can come and find it. Now, that is, there are also obviously great cases for employees or end users to access stuff in the knowledge base. I think this is where knowledge bases can get abused though. Ken, so.

I think for example, like if you're in the, so one of the types of knowledge that I don't think a knowledge base is very good for is software knowledge. So if you're, maybe take that example earlier, that sales rep that.

doesn't remember how to convert an opportunity to closed one, or doesn't remember how to convert a lead to an opportunity. You're sitting there in Salesforce staring at it. You wanna be a good guy for your boss and do your hygiene, but you don't remember how to do it. That's not the moment I should leave Salesforce and go search around a knowledge base to try to find something. That is a moment where if the knowledge I need is for a process I'm right in the middle of, it should just be right there for me.

in the tool that I'm using, I shouldn't have to switch tools and contacts. And so I think that's part of the problem. I think we ask people to go to the knowledge base at the wrong time for the wrong scenario, and they don't do it. They would rather slack the expert, or if they're in an office, shoulder tap their coworker who knows how to do it. And so that to me is...

is I think the flaw with that idea that you guys talked about on that pod with Hillary.

Ken Babcock (01:05:06.422)

Yeah, it is pretty crazy that in setting up a lot of our knowledge bases, and now I will say Guru does a better job of this than most, but with most knowledge bases we expect when we put a piece of content in that knowledge base, we had a guest who actually called it when you throw something in the bucket, but it's crazy that we expect the person who doesn't know what they're doing.

Rocco Seyboth (01:05:14.935)

Yeah, we do.

Ken Babcock (01:05:34.754)

to create a search query to find what they should know, but they don't. So they're probably searching for the wrong thing and then ultimately arrive on the most relevant piece of knowledge that they can then apply. Like it's crazy that we expect that in knowledge basis. So I totally hear you on sort of the search dilemma that comes with throwing everything in the bucket.

Rocco Seyboth (01:06:01.367)

Yeah. All right. So, so on second, on second thought, uh, closely evaluate your, your policy. If you're going to archive your, your articles, if people aren't looking at it, it may not be because the article is no longer valuable. It may be that you want to maybe a different delivery mechanism for that particular piece of knowledge.

Ken Babcock (01:06:04.194)

So I rock her. Yeah.

Ken Babcock (01:06:27.406)

Absolutely. I have a second thought too. I have one that I've been sitting on that I've been like, ah, I'm not sure how I feel about this one. And it actually came from an episode with my dear friend, Kristen Kaiser Mulligan at Heard. We worked together at Uber. We speak a very similar language. But

Rocco Seyboth (01:06:30.967)

Hmm.

Ken Babcock (01:06:50.39)

You know, something she said I've been thinking a lot more about and, you know, the gist of it was when you show people the end destination, when you pick the right metric that you want to move, Hey, here's where we are and here's where we want to go. You can let them kind of fill in the blanks, give them the flexibility to figure out how they get there. Start at point a show them point B. They'll figure it out. That's something that I've.

I've been wrestling with in my head and I'm curious to hear your take on it before I share a little bit of what I've been wrestling with.

Rocco Seyboth (01:07:26.767)

Yeah, I remember, this is one of my favorite episodes. I remember this part of it, by the way. She made the argument that if you basically give people the destination and give them some flexibility on how they get there. This is where I think we first have to qualify what type of knowledge are we talking about. Not all knowledge is created equal. So if we are talking about,

something like a quarterly goal or a high level business outcome, right? Or the result of a creative process, like the result of a meeting or a brainstorm or a blog or a graphic. I really love what she said, right?

outline what good looks like, and then give me flexibility on my way there. For certain types of knowledge that you need to transfer, that framework makes total sense. Here's where that completely doesn't make sense. If the knowledge you're transferring is procedural in nature, like for example, we've talked a lot about learning how to use different software, right? If the knowledge you're transferring is procedural in nature,

Rocco Seyboth (01:08:52.203)

If the person you're transferring it to is an ambivalent adopter like me, it's terrible for you to leave, to tell me where I need to end up and then not tell me exactly how I get there. The amount of cognitive load that I have to have in order to figure out the right way to do a process on my own.

is going to really slow down that process for me. So if it's a software process, if it's anything that's procedural in nature, what I want is to go through that process as brainlessly as possible, make as few decisions as possible. In fact, procedures...

aren't even that interesting to me. I don't even want to think about it. Like a lot of the software processes we have to do in our job, Ken, are like, they're not the real work. They're the gateway to the real work we need to do, right? If I'm that sales rep.

and I have to enter that lead, the thing I wanna think about is like, how to research what's going on with them, the creative way to follow up with them. If I have to spend any of my mental energy on entering the lead or converting the lead, you've now crushed my creative energy. And so, depending on what kind of knowledge we're talking about, I really want a highly prescribed step-by-step process that I can follow.

Ken Babcock (01:10:26.674)

exactly what I was wrestling with and I'm a history guy and so the way I was thinking about it was like you know if we go back to early explorers we're searching for the best way to get to the West Indies there was no map for that you know so it was a lot of like okay there's the destination what's the best way to get there but now

Rocco Seyboth (01:10:28.942)

Mm.

Ken Babcock (01:10:49.974)

We have maps for everything. So why wouldn't you follow the map? There's no value in going outside of what's been validated, followed time and time again to get from point A to point B. And I think the caveat is exactly what you said, especially if it's something that isn't going to differentiate.

who you are in your job or your role. If it's procedural knowledge where it's like, I just need to execute on these tasks, let's not give people the creative license to like meander about and slow themselves down. Let's give them the tried and true with conviction. Here's how you get there.

Rocco Seyboth (01:11:32.995)

Yeah, you'll save them some energy, you'll reduce the likelihood that they're gonna make mistakes. And so, yeah, so I guess on second thought, the real issue comes down to what kind of knowledge are you transferring?

Ken Babcock (01:11:52.91)

Absolutely. Awesome. Well, Rocko, I just want to thank you for joining me on the pod. It's nice to have a familiar...

Rocco Seyboth (01:12:00.367)

This was fun. We're only gonna do this once a quarter? Well, it doesn't seem like enough.

Ken Babcock (01:12:05.842)

I think what's going to happen is we're going to release this and the response is going to be totally overwhelming and we're going to move three times a week I think, right? Or maybe two times if we go to a four-day work week.

Rocco Seyboth (01:12:16.281)

Y-yes.

Rocco Seyboth (01:12:19.859)

Yeah, so I'm interested to hear from the audience what they thought about all of our takes. Tell us what you think about Salesforce closing for a week for training, what you think about Loom and Atlassian. And if there's anything we missed, either top change enabler news or any not obvious news for change enablers, let us know and we'll cover it in the next episode.

Ken Babcock (01:12:44.406)

Yep, absolutely. I'm sure we, I'm sure we missed some things, but we only had, you know, an hour and change today, but with that, uh, we'll be back with some, some more great guests. We'll be back with Rocco. Thank you for listening. This is the change in April's podcast by tango.